More Leads Online Podcast Episode 004
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Nathan (00:00): Hey, this is Nathan Young, founder and integrator at more leads online today. I’m here with Matt Tyner, Tyner, Tyner who is currently the director of marketing. I wanted to set you up to make sure we set the record straight at Williams Comfort air and Mr. Plumber and has been in the trades for like most of your career. I think so like, Matt, bring us up to speed. How, who are you? How did you get here?
Matt Tyner (00:25): It’s an interesting, interesting career path. So went to Butler, graduated from Butler here in Indianapolis, and in 2010, my senior year there, I got this awesome internship at Delta Faucet Company on their product marketing team and just really loved it, fell in love with the people, the industry, and it’s just, it’s really dynamic and cool. And I was more on the retail side, so I didn’t get him interact with the contractors as much, but we had some contractor days and they would come in and they’re just really cool down to earth people. And, and I love that and I’ll remember that forever. And so housing market went to shit in 2008, right? And we obviously, from a faucet manufacturer, it really, really sucked. So they were still on a hiring freeze. And I was like, well, this sucks. I’ve been doing this for a year and can’t get hired here.
Matt Tyner (01:16): But, but little did I know my boss at the time, she also works. She used to work at carrier the manufacturer with someone that worked for a local distributor here as vice president of sales and marketing. And both of them actually invented the, or their names are on the patent for the infinity controller, which is Carrier’s main, main thermostat, right? They’re high in thermostat. So anyways, that’s industry jargon, whatever I got hired on at a distributor here, regional, I think they’re in seven States now started on their eCommerce side, helping them build up their eCommerce platform for contractors to order online through them and then moved into a territory manager position for carrier love that that’s really where it expanded my love for working with contractors and for contractors, right? Down-To-Earth people they’re just genuinely nice and they just want to help people. And that’s what I love about it is is there, there’s no ulterior motives.
Matt Tyner (02:12): Like they literally just want to genuinely help people be comfortable in their home and realize the need that that’s needed from a marketing perspective. You know, I got this marketing degree. I might as well use it. I was doing sales at the time, loved it, loved interacting with the dealers, but I just felt like there was a more, more purpose for them. So from there I went to work at HVAC.com. I had an industry relationships helped really build that business. We were primarily e-commerce at the time. So we, we just really worked on, on getting different products, building those relationships, building the portfolio of products on the, on the website, everything that, that entails. And that was super fun, gained a lot of real B to C type knowledge from a marketing side of things. And really that’s where I sharpened the negotiation skills, communication skills, everything of that nature, because you were typically working with higher level VP level at the manufacturer folks really cool loved it, but I wanted, I wanted to get back on the contracting side and help contractors with their marketing. So from there went to work for a two location HPAC and electrical shop out of Cincinnati and Lexington, Kentucky. So I was over in the Ohio, not a Buckeye, but I was over in Ohio and just help them. They needed help bringing their digital marketing, their website forms didn’t even go anywhere. There was just a huge opportunity to be able to help them out. So like it, and there were agency after agency that they churned through and the owner there was just like, man, can you come help me out? I said, absolutely. So we created a plan to
allow me to come over there. I help them develop out the marketing side of things and really allowed it to grow. So the previous year they’ve seen a decrease in revenue.
Matt Tyner (03:48): The following year, they saw an increase in about a million dollars in revenue. So, so about a $1.5 million swing on it on a small business, which is pretty powerful in the HVAC space. And that’s where I got. Maybe, maybe I actually know something when it comes to this marketing thing and might be good at this, right? At the time, there was some things that happened. My family, my dad died, wanted to make a, wanting to make, get back close to the family. I’m originally from Indiana. They ended up greater Indiana area. I just wanted to get back to be closer to family. We were starting. We were starting my wife and I were starting a family. We just had a daughter. So I actually made connection with a local CEO here in Indianapolis that had started her own marketing agency and was wanting to really gear it towards a home services.
Matt Tyner (04:31): So I came on board as a VP, a VP of marketing for the, the home services and B2B segment, and really helping, helping develop out the strategies. Lots of what will it look like for the contractors that were clients? Everything of that nature did that for over two years and then had the opportunity to chat with Jacob, the president here and his dad, Joe, one of the founders of Williams Comfort Air. And they were in a little bit of rut digitally, and they wanted someone to really come in and own it. And I started on owning the digital side. Eventually made some, there were some changes in the organization. So I took over all of marketing along, I would say probably six, seven, eight months ago now. So I’ve been here a year and a half freaking love it. We’ve got locations in Indy, Cincii Louisville. We’re different brands. So you would hear Williams Company or Mr. Plumber, Thomas and Galbreath Jarboe. That’s what we have in those markets. Just having a blast, having fun recruiting now reports to through marketing. We have a really like lead gen specific team that reports through marketing. And it’s just really a really fun I’m, I’m glad to be a part of this industry.
Nathan (05:39): That’s an incredible background. You actually, so I, I was obviously doing a little bit of research before we jumped on here and it looks like you also, so about the same time you left the agency you were with and started with Williams, you also sort of started your own personal site and you probably haven’t had a lot of time to put into it because I can’t imagine how busy you are with William’s stuff, but what inspired you to kind of go individually on that?
Matt Tyner (06:07): Just help people, man, I think so. I’d been in the agency side of things. I worked for contractors. I’ve got a really diverse view of this industry and the different angles of it. And I really just wanted to help because again, these are just genuinely good people that need help from marketing because oftentimes there are agencies out there that clearly take advantage of contractors and they’re not getting the results. I just wanted to bring some truth to that as a, as a, you know, I’m just stepping back. I’m not an agency. I’m not trying to sell you something. If you want to chat, if you want to talk about me, maybe doing some consulting, cool with that, I’m not interested in running an HPAC marketing company. I’ll leave that to you, Nathan. It’s just not, I just want to help. And so I created that to give some ideas and be able to see how, how we can help impact the industry in a positive way. And hopefully clarify some of that noise that’s in the industry when it comes to marketing.
Nathan (07:06): Oh my gosh. Yeah. So the dive into this a little bit in just a second, just so you know, like I’m a little bit, I don’t know if type is the right word. My, my wife loves the Enneagram. And so she’s like, Oh, what, you know, like, what number are you, what number? So I don’t know if that means anything to you, but I’m a five in the system, which basically means like I’m an architect. Like all, I, I, I think about plans and systems and stuff like that. So what am I up against with you? Am I going to re are we going to go far afield or are we going to, what’s your natural tendency on that?
Matt Tyner (07:39): When it comes to, so you’re talking more of like how I operate as a human.
Nathan (07:45): Yeah, yeah. Basically just how you operate as a human.
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Matt Tyner (07:47): Right. So definitely a creative brainstormer, but I also find a lot of energy in creating scalable solutions. So that’s, what’s exciting about working for Williams. It’s a company that can scale into new markets. It’s, it’s large from a standard of HVAC contractors. So we have 400 employees, we’ve got four locations or three locations, four brands, 275 trucks on the road. And it’s like, this is fun. Like it’s a large marketing budget to be able to help grow the business and just help clients experience the five star experience that we try to bring that true, the true comfort experience that we’re trying to bring to their home. That is just so powerful. And the way that your, when you worked for an agency, Nathan, one of the disconnects that you often see, and I know you guys are different and as fact is operations, right? You’re not involved in the operations every day.
Matt Tyner (08:40): And I think when I was working for the agency, that’s what I miss. I loved being involved in the operations because marketing is top of the funnel. If I don’t have the midsection of the spinal, take your phone calls, how many, what’s our abandoned rate? How are we answering? Are we putting the right call, right tech – all that stuff. Like without that, marketing’s never going to work. So as, as you can help from a marketing perspective and bring insight to it, you just create this exponential ability to grow. And it creates scalable programs, scalable processes, and it allows you to buy new marketing, different marketing, to bring in additional leads. And that’s genuinely what I’m, I’m super pumped. And that’s really, my skillset is identify where we can find some operational efficiencies. Make sure we put a process in place. I’m not the guy.
Matt Tyner (09:26): Like I’ll start a process, I’ll get it to a point. And then I’ve got to pass it off to someone else because I’m getting bored and I’ve got to move on to the next thing. But I realized that and I make sure I’m surrounding myself with a team that can help support me in that and take things to the finish line. And we’ve got amazing leaders as well within the organization to help do that, man, it’s just a ton of fun, but definitely a creative guy, but, but creative to the point where I want to create scalable solutions, because last thing I want to do is create something that, that can’t be scaled, or I can only work with one lead source or something like that. Like, no, that’s not going to get the job done. Let’s create something. That’s going to create scalable, exponential growth for the clients in your case or my case company. So I guess that’s how I think as, as a marketer and as a person.
Nathan (10:11): No, that’s awesome. I love that. As you told the story, we asked to actually watch your personality in action as explainers. That was cool. You just said it, you, as far as as far as an HVAC area, home services company goes like when I look at how many companies we talk to and how many companies we’ve looked at as an agency or just my own life, right? You guys are big and lots and lots and lots of people, dream of being at the spot that you guys have made it to. One thing that we’ve seen over the last couple of years is that it doesn’t seem like we talk about tech giants and we’re using, I mean, like we’re literally using zoom right now. And I’m, I’m speaking on this microphone that some other tech company manufactured, whatever, but I wouldn’t be in this room without a stone mason.
Matt Tyner (11:02): And I wouldn’t be happy to be in this room without an HVAC guy. Right. And yeah, that’s exactly right. You know, home services and trades make the world turn, but we have like really big issues we’re facing, right? Like it feels like there’s more work than ever, but customers seem to be less loyal than ever. And it feels like workers are harder to find than ever. And workers are less loyal than ever. And there’s, and there’s more right? Like, could you give me, like, what are the top three things that you guys see constantly that you’re facing? I mean, you have so much ability to speak to what’s going on in the industry. You’re so big. You have so much data. What are sort of the top things you guys are seeing that need to happen?
Matt Tyner (11:45): Company-Wise us like, I love when people were like, Oh, do you see this competitor do this? Or like, I’ll talk to HVC dealers, all the, like, how do you handle competition or stuff like that. I’m just kind of like,The competition?. The competition is us. Like we have so many lead opportunities. It’s insane. The marketing ability, like all of that is just absolutely insane. We gotta get our shit together. Right? We’ve got to continually making sure we’re making our client experience better because as long as we’re focused on us and improving us, which we do a really good job of the competition, doesn’t matter. And not that they’re not good. We have some really strong competitors, good competitors here in Indy. And that’s awesome because I love good competition. Bad competition is the one you don’t want. Right. It’s going to give the industry a bad reputation, all that stuff.
Matt Tyner (12:34): But, but as long as you can really focus on yourself in summary yourself, you, as, as a business, if we’re talking to business owners, you as a business owner are your main competition. So let’s just get that out of the way. I think there are some industry dynamics, right? And how is, how is tech going to influence the industry? And we need to be cognizant of it. I don’t, you know, I see people putting on message boards know, where’s the industry going to end up in 10 years? Oh, Amazon’s going to dominate, Google’s gonna dominate. And we said that, we said that five years ago, I think there is power that HVAC contractors realize they don’t have that they have, that. They also have a relationship with a client, a localized relationship where they know the people. We have people going into the home. Amazon has something being delivered, but we have people coming into the home that they already trust.
Matt Tyner (13:18): There there’s a personal connection there that we can help and we should be able to foster. And we have to be building that we have to be building upon the loyalty and the employees and team. We’re really blessed. We have an onsite staff trainer. We bring the majority of our team comes from folks that
we’ve recruited outside of the industry, or that don’t have industry experience. We have, we have some really good senior techs, I’d say senior techs that most companies aren’t going anywhere, right? Those are the folks that are well taken care of. They realize how good they have it in some cases. And they re they they’ve been around the block. They understand that. So we don’t see a lot of attrition there. Really where, where the big opportunity is, is bringing people outside of the industry. And I’d much rather bring someone in that can communicate and educate our clients properly and be able to build that value and make sure they’re providing a maximum experience, like the most awesome experience anyone can have in the home.
Matt Tyner (14:12): I’d rather bring them in, teach them HVAC, teach them plumbing. We will pay for your plumbing school in Indiana. It’s a four year education. They’ve got to go to plumbing school for four years before they’re a licensed plumber. So what bring people in, we’ll train them. We’ve got trainers on staff, everything of that nature. And it’s just, we see the value there. So we’re constantly just bringing in new people and bringing them into the business and growing them up through the business. But I do realize not a lot of companies can do that. So that is where manpower labor is. A huge is a huge issue. I mean, in summer we can do as many installs as we want. Just how many install crews do we have? So it’s just all, it really comes down to really getting a grasp of your labor and what I would recommend, you know, what we’ve done here is we’ve taken recruiting.
Matt Tyner (14:57): Recruiting is always this, Oh, it’s HR, it’s HR, it’s HR. I call bullshit on it. Recruiting recruiting is marketing. You’re creating an employer brand it’s branding. You’re building that experience up. So bring recruiting into it. It’s just like marketing is client acquisition. It’s also employee acquisition as well. And so I think that is absolutely critical that you align that with marketing. If you have the ability to, and just allow the right stories to be told, because all of this is telling your story, celebrating who you are. Right. everyone has this amazing story to tell, tell people so they can celebrate it, tell people so they can join in it. There’s just so much, so much power there if you align it. And that’s, I would say those are probably the top three, get your own shit together. Labor labor is just a huge one, but also seeing where the tech is going to go see where tech is going to take the industry as well.
Nathan (15:54): We had, so a couple episodes ago, we had a guy who’s actually local to where I live right now. You’re local to where I used to live and Indianapolis, but now I live in Northwest Indiana. And so we had Mike Arnold of Creekside Landscaping, and he struggled to grow for a little while. And he talked so much about how hiring is really hard and hiring the right people is really hard, but they realized after a while, recruiting was almost half of his marketing that like, if he wanted to showcase just exactly how good the company could do it was about making sure that he got people logistics. Exactly. Like what you’re saying, not even necessarily who had deep experience. Like it was nice, but the most important thing was that he got people who had the right ethic, right. Who were actually interested in making sure the customer had a good experience.
Matt Tyner (16:51): And because of that and adopting the values, really the core values of the leadership and the rest of the company that they could translate the rest of it down. Right. Those things drove the work and then they could teach them the actual mechanical skills. I don’t think it’s quite as heavy a training as what you’re
talking about. I mean like plumbing, like you said, it’s a four year education process, but it seems like we’re hitting again and again and again on this concept, which is finding the right people, which is not necessarily starting with people who are already professional in the field, as it is finding the right sort of core value fits. Right.
Matt Tyner (17:29): Listen, I mean, when you talk about that, attrition is a management issue. That means you’re not managing your people, right. You’re not setting your proper expectations. That’s, that’s really what it comes down to as a, as a core, because you can work through, you know, other companies may have flashy or things, but if you’re, if you’re creating right expectations and you’re, you’re managing and people feel like where they come to work as a safe space, right. They’re going to stay because they value all of that. And that’s something that we just got to continually keep in mind is if we’re, if we’re losing people, it’s not shiny objects, we’d like to think it is. But it’s, it’s probably a potential management issue. And, and it’s not saying they’re not being managed correctly, but they may not be managed to the way that they’re thought. Or maybe we’re not hiring correctly. Maybe we’re not bringing in the right people. Maybe we’re not scaling, or we’re not, you know, the personality assessment isn’t, isn’t doing it. Right. There’s just a myriad of things that can impact that. It’s just, you gotta look inward first, before you start saying it, they left because of the competition. No, they wouldn’t even be looking if it wasn’t for that internal security that, that place you create for them to come back.
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Nathan (18:39): This is so funny. So this ties directly into, we just had Dustin Stelzer on the podcast and he has this show called Electrician U on YouTube. He teaches electricians, like how to, what kind of tools they need and stuff like that. And he was saying literally exactly what you’re saying. And he was like, I was working for a guy. I went to work. I hated that guy who was my boss. I left, you know? And I went through that a couple of times. He’s like now I work for a guy. Sometimes when I do go to work as an electrician, working for a company, the guy that I work with, he’s like, I’ll never work for another guy again. He’s like, now the pay is not actually the top level that I could be making. And other people have offered me more, but it doesn’t matter because that guy, I know he’ll go to war for me as this is employee and I won’t work for anyone else now. And that like what you said earlier. So first of all, recruiting is marketing because that’s right. And then the other thing is that almost makes it down into something that you guys have done extraordinarily well at WCA, which is that like, so I, again, I did a little bit of research. You have 3,200 Google reviews and almost like you’re really close to it. You have like a 4.7 rating. That crap does not happen by accident, right? Like you don’t get that by having a first of all, you can’t spam that number.
Matt Tyner (20:02): No, no Google doesn’t like that.
Matt Tyner (20:05): And like, they’ll catch you or, or your competitors will catch you way before you hit that level and you won’t keep them. So they must be genuine. And you don’t get those reviews. If your people suck. Like if your people don’t like you, if you have a bunch of turnover. So clearly would you say keeping retaining training, investing in your people has directly translated into the ability of being a marketing leader?
Matt Tyner (20:31):
100%. I mean, 100%. It’s, it’s so important to us. Don’t get me wrong. We lose people and that’s completely, that’s completely fine people. And we don’t take it. We don’t take it personal. Right? You have to make a personal decision and maybe we didn’t hire the best person to fit our culture. And that’s hundred percent fine. Our culture is going to be different than every one of our competitors. Right. It could be better. It could be worse depending on the person that’s viewing it. It’s all objective. And I think that’s why hiring is so important. But all of that, all of that comes into play. You know, we have those reviews for a reason. We’ve created sustainable systems and processes and expectation setting with clients so that they know what’s going to expect in the home. And so this was funny. We actually got a client opportunity.
Matt Tyner (21:12): I don’t like using negative words. So it’s like an opportunity for improvement. I’ll say that instead of complaint, because our technician wasn’t wearing a company hat. Like at first I was like, this is, this is interesting. I’ve never had someone complain about a company hat, but then as I thought about it, I was like, Holy shit, look how powerful this is turned in. That our customer, we created such a, such an expectation, such a client experience that the hat tipped them off and caused them to contact us directly to tell us like, that’s awesome. That’s the, that’s the shit everyone needs to be doing. And I was just amazed at it because once it clicked in my head, it was like, man, that’s powerful. And it just shows you that the hard work and everything we’ve done, we’ve really only been strongly requesting reviews probably for two years before that maybe had a couple hundred reviews for a 400 person shop. That’s, that’s not many, right.
Nathan (22:07): That’s a pretty normal amount for that. Right.
Matt Tyner (22:10): But then we just create a process and we have this five star experience that, that we follow. And in the last question, when we leave the home, is did we provide you with a five star experience that people forget how powerful that question is? Because if not, Hey, you better be going back and fixing whatever happened or anything, you know, trying to figure out a way to solve for that problem. But if you did, you can say, awesome. Totally appreciate it. I’m going to text you the link to be able to leave us a review. If you could, we’d really appreciate you just giving feedback on your experience and tell the story. As you see fit. We don’t want people to lie. Like that’s no fun. Also. You just gotta, you gotta manage your reviews. I’m angry that it’s not a 4.8 or higher to me.
Matt Tyner (22:53): That’s driving me crazy. I’m like, because we’re better than that. I know we’re better than that. So it’s been a big focus. You’ve got to manage the negatives, right? You’ve got to turn them into your most loyal clients, but you’ve also got to realize those negative reviews. Don’t blame the client. You’re the one that set the wrong expectation or gave them the bad experience, but make it right. Like give whoever handles those, the ultimate decision making to be able to, to fix it and make it right now, don’t even ask and say, Hey, since we made this right, can you take down your Google review? That’s kind of shady. How about instead? You just blow their socks off. And they’re like, now I want to change it. I don’t want to just get rid of the negative. Now I want to tell the story of why it’s a positive and that, and that’s the key.
Matt Tyner (23:35): And really a focus of ours is how do we continue to make an improvement to make sure that that as a hundred percent or as close to a hundred percent as possible, our clients are it’s satisfied and doing a five star experience. I will say some of those one star reviews, the comments are like, they do awesome work. And I was like, ah, man, that one sucks because they just didn’t understand that that was not good. It’s not good. You want, do you want the five stars? But I need to work on the marketing and say, Hey, it was good. Give us five stars. Not one, please. It’s not number one in your life. Yeah.
Nathan (24:10): Right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s fine. Oops. You got to scale backwards. We definitely have seen we’ve you and I had just talked about this. I mean, and you said this, like it’s so much of the operations is stuff that is marketing. You were just talking about like, Oh, the hat was missing. I mean, I would do the same thing if, for, if I went to a McDonald’s right. And yes. Okay. I sometimes go to McDonald’s or whatever. And I have little kids I got to go to McDonald’s sometimes, but it feel like if four of the letters on the sign was out. Right. You’d be like, Oh, that’s like a problem. Cause you expect it to be clean. Like they’ve set an expectation of like, this is what it’s supposed to look like. And then whenever if you show up and you’re like, that’s not right. Like that’s broken. That is not what I expected when I got here. That’s there’s something broken about this and something like that, you would never, you know, you wouldn’t walk into a McDonald’s and be like, Hey, did you know, three of the big gigantic letters that you see every morning when you get here or out, but like
Matt Tyner (25:14): You will about bathrooms. Right? That’s huge with them. When I was traveling as a PM, I would always stop at McDonald’s. If I had to use the restroom because you know, every 30 minutes they’re having someone in there completely cleaning the bathrooms. It’s an expectation they set. That’s why they have so much commuter traffic of people that stop in and then off shit. Now you feel obligated to get, get a cheeseburger or a pop to go something, soda, whatever. It’s all about expectation setting. And that’s, that’s where things can fail easily. It’s just the expectation setting alone.
Nathan (25:45): Right? So we, this all sort of all ties together. We’ve actually as marketing people. So I’ve been on both sides, right? I was a bricklayer for four years. I worked in Indianapolis where you live. I actually took care of the flooring at the high school, in the town where you live. And my brother still owns that company and operates around that area. You know, like family owned business, there’s less than a million dollars in revenue. We’ve got three trucks, just like a little elite crew. And I regularly told, so I’ve been on that side where I’ve been there. You know, I, I was a bricklayer and then on the same side now I am the marketing agency. Right. I regularly say stuff like, Hey, has marketers. Like I really call us ops in disguise. And we talked about this a little bit, right?
Nathan (26:33): Like we’re, we’re listening to phone calls as part of our reporting process. And then we’re like, Hey, you know, we just noticed this person called for the third time. And they just said, I called on Friday and it’s six days ago. And I asked for someone to schedule a time when I would get somebody out here or a quote to replace my roof. Or I asked for pricing on a water heater and like, Hey, they’re calling for the third time. Or Hey, they called three times. And they got three different answering people. And they gave them all different prices for installing the water heater. Like, and so we’re, we’re communicating
back that stuff. If it doesn’t directly change into operations changes, like we can’t, but we’re finding these things because we’re the marketing company. The other thing that we’ve seen happen, we were actually hiring a good people. And then talking about how marketing can translate into other things. We actually started the company because as people who are in the trades, we were really frustrated by the lack of work and dishonesty we saw in the agency world, right? Like I was there, I fired, right. Like I fired our first Hibu rep. Right. Like that was me. And so at my parents’ furniture store, when I was 17, the first Dex media guy walked in and I was like, no, screw you.
Matt Tyner (27:49): Right. Good. That was a good, solid marketing decision.
Nathan (27:55): Yeah. Thank you. And we ran the whole gamut, right? Dex,uHibu. Yelp. Oh my God.
Matt Tyner (28:02): Oh yeah.
Nathan (28:03): I actually have a question for you about Yelp in a minute, but we know that companies who want to grow need more leads, but we know that they have this problem with hiring. We also know that your marketing, if you have a really good relationship with the people who are helping you with on the marketing side, that translates into operations, how do you feel like let’s put it all together? How do you feel like marketing and SEO specifically can help with hiring? Cause it feels like that’s where we’re really trying to get to on this.
Matt Tyner (28:34): From an SEO perspective, HVAC careers, I know are HVAC jobs, this or that. Like those are very popular search terms. And I think being able to be number one, if someone is searching for those types of terms are going to be powerful for you because A) it shows you how your shit together as a company, but B) it also, you’re able to then tell the story as you want it to be told. No, they’re all, you can write a job description. You can do this, but now you can tell the story to them. And that’s something we’re going through right now is how do we revamp the careers page to be able to tell the story we’ve got, we’ve got video being creative. We we’ve got some really powerful pieces that are going to be able to help tell people why they want to come work for us.
Matt Tyner (29:18): Because like people don’t even imagine some of the cool shit we have and how we take care of people and want to ensure that they and their families are happy. Right? Because you’re going to spend more, you’re going to spend more time at work than you do at home with your family. And that’s just, you got it. And you gotta work somewhere. You like. And also somewhere that really wants to protect you as an employee and give you the best possibilities career wise, you know, that you can get. And, and sometimes those aren’t the most fun things, but they’re very practical. And at the end of the day are going to set you up in a better position for your career and for your family. So, yeah, I mean, from an SEO and marketing perspective, that that’s critical because you want, you want to be able to control that story. And so that’s very important.